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HR Data Labs podcast
Christopher CJ Gross - Overcoming Class Bias in the Workplace
Christopher “CJ” Gross, CEO of Jabbar HR Solutions, CEO and Founder of Ascension Worldwide, and author, joins us this episode to discuss key takeaways from his book, What’s Your ZIP Code Story? CJ shares how our backgrounds shape workplace interactions, techniques for navigating difficult conversations, and practical approaches to addressing class bias in professional settings.
[0:00] Introduction
- Welcome, CJ!
- Today’s Topic: Understanding and Overcoming Class Bias in the Workplace
[6:55] What inspired CJ to write his book?
- Where to begin when discussing class in the workplace
- Understanding that it’s human to develop biases
[19:26] Where did CJ start the journey to write his book?
- The power of conversations that stems from curiosity
- Exploring the dualities within people
[31:39] How do you navigate difficult conversations with people who share opposing opinions?
- How to engage productively with people who hold opposing opinions
- Why face-to-face conversations build trust in ways digital communication cannot
[41:18] Closing
- Thanks for listening!
Connect with CJ:
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Connect with Dwight:
Podcast Team
Produced by Afogato Media
Quick Quote
“If we’re not able to share [our stories] without fear of retaliation, then we don’t have an environment where we can have dialogue. When that happens, people will use power to protect themselves.”
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For more HR Data Labs®, enjoy the HR Data Labs Brown Bag Lunch Hours every Friday at 2:00PM-2:30PM EST. Check it out here: https://hrdatalabs.com/brown-bag-lunch/
Produced by Affogato Media
The world of business is more complex than ever. The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex. Welcome to the HR data labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts inside and outside the world of human resources. Listen as we explore the impact that compensation strategy, data and people analytics can have on your organization. This podcast is sponsored by salary.com Your source for data technology and consulting for compensation and beyond. Now here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.
David Turetsky:Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host. David Turetsky, alongside my friend, co host, partner in crime. Dwight Brown from salary.com, Dwight, how are you
Dwight Brown:Mostly partner in crime? But we want to talk about those. Yeah, statute of limitations, Yeah, I'm good. How are you doing today?
David Turetsky:I'm okay. It's actually beautiful here. It's not freezing cold in my office. So I'm good, nice. But you know why I'm better?
Dwight Brown:Why is that?
David Turetsky:We have a brilliant guest with us. His name is Christopher. CJ, gross. CJ, welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast.
CJ Gross:Thank you. David and Dwight I appreciate it? And I mean, I'm excited to be here. I've been waiting for this.
David Turetsky:Yeah, we've been excited too. CJ, tell us a little bit about you
CJ Gross:Sure. So I am a business management consultant. I have two companies since I've talked to you last so I have the ascension worldwide, which deals with, you know, culture work within organizations. And I recently have launched Jabbar HR solutions that deals with all things. HR, awesome. I will say a little bit about my background. I come from the the industry of engineering. I was a mechanical designer for General Electric many, many moons ago. And I, you know, was exposed to six sigma process improvement. Tell people, I'm a black belt Six Sigma and I know karate, both are there
David Turetsky:you go, there you go. Both
Dwight Brown:are true. Point I'm tired.
CJ Gross:Yeah, both are true. But the reason why that's important is because it informs the work, the work that I do in organizations. And we can talk a little, you know, we'll that. I'm sure that will come out as we discuss. And then, you know, most of my work have has been in the leadership realm, the OD realm, and then more recently, when I say recently, within the last six years, you know, the lot around the DEI work. Now, I know that's why it's questionable now, but that that happened, and then also, you know, lots of recruiting and the leadership development spanning over the last 20 years. So that's me!
David Turetsky:but, what you didn't mention is that you're also a published author as well.
CJ Gross:Oh, yeah, about that? I am. I am the author of what's your zip code story, understanding and overcoming class bias in the workplace. And yeah, that's what we're here to talk about. So yeah.
David Turetsky:Yes we will, but before we do that, we always ask our guests, what's one fun thing that no one knows about CJ.
CJ Gross:I tell a lot about myself, so I don't know if it's something that no one knows. I would have to dig really deep. You got to dig deep because I'm a very transparent speaker, so people know a lot, but you know what I will say, some people don't know I have a couple of things, but some people don't know that I'm, I'm I motocross. Oh, oh yeah, I motocross. And what that actually means to be very specific. So I did ride actual motocross, the big jumps and all that, after the eight to 40. I just wanted to make that very
David Turetsky:I didn't get into a lot of padding. You had a
CJ Gross:Usually people stop around and, you know, maybe they lot of stop in their 30s or something. I had a coach, right? And so the coach was like, you know, if you could do anything in the world, what would you? And I was like, Ah, man, I love motocross. I would do motocross. We couldn't afford it when I was younger. And blah, blah, blah. And she was like, Well, what's stopping you? And I was like, I don't know. Then. And then I got off the call and told my wife, I'm gonna ride motocross. She goes,No, no, right? Motocross for like, a year. And then I was like, This is dangerous. And so I shifted to so I still had a motocross bike, but I shifted the trail ride, and yeah,
David Turetsky:which is a lot less dangerous, by the way. Actually, it's dangerous,
CJ Gross:Dangerous, but it's no more than walking across the street right
David Turetsky:exactly
CJ Gross:when you're riding on the trails. I mean, you control the speed. You're not racing. You're Not You don't have to do wheelies, you know, you don't have right. You might hit a tree, but that's when you right. That's, that's. It's on you, that's on you, that's not
David Turetsky:literally on you.
CJ Gross:So, yeah,
Dwight Brown:so that's your own damn fault.
CJ Gross:Yeah, that tree was minding his own business. It had nothing to do with you. You drove into that tree, right? So that's a little known fact about me, all right?
Dwight Brown:Poor tree
David Turetsky:that reminds me to joke, what's the last thing that goes through a mosquito's mind before it passes away. Oh God, when it hits your windshield, yeah, it's buttocks!
CJ Gross:Buttocks,
David Turetsky:yeah, it's the last thing that goes through its mind, buttocks. It's tush, it's glass, it's
Dwight Brown:we're trying to keep it from being explicit.
CJ Gross:Oh, sorry, yeah,
David Turetsky:sorry, sorry, it's a father joke, a dad joke. So, oh, my god, yeah, my kids do the exact same thing. They go, what? What are you saying? I was thinking about. You're hitting a tree, right? Well, you're Yeah, anyway, okay, so see when you have to explain the joke to everybody out there, but you have to explain the joke, it's
CJ Gross:As long as we laugh. That's the whole point, right? Yeah,
David Turetsky:exactly, which is totally fine, by the way. Yeah, right. So we're here to talk about our topic for today, not talking about jokes. Our topic for today is talking about your book. What's your zip code story, which is fascinating. And what we want to try and talk about is the context of today, because the book came out in 22 Correct,
CJ Gross:correct.
David Turetsky:Well, the world has changed dramatically since 2022 if we can believe it, that's not really even three years ago. And so what we're going to do is we're going to explore what's your zip code story,
CJ Gross:sure.
David Turetsky:So CJ, let's talk a little bit about what's your zip code story. What really inspired you to write this book. So
CJ Gross:David, what's interesting is when people ask me that question, I always wanted them to know that I did not want to write this book, right? I did not want to go through the labor of writing another book, going through the process of publishing and marketing and all those things. But what I saw like I said in the intro, I was doing work in the diversity kind of area, and there were things that were not being addressed. And part of that was I was made aware of that when I had a conversation with a gentleman. His name was Rob, and he was a gay African American man, and he was a little bit older than me, and I had a story in my head about him, as we often do when we talk to people. Okay, so he's gay and he's older, so he's experienced more racism and homophobia, right? And so I was thinking, oh, man, his life is probably he's gonna tell me something that's, you know, all these hurdles. And he did. But what he said was, which was shocking to me, he said he's talking about being excluded. And I was like, Yeah, being excluded. Yeah, that happens. And he talks about being excluded from the country club. And I was like, well, that's not my story. We were just worried about getting into the YMCA. And so, yeah, he talked about having a mentor, yeah, and mentors. His mentor was Maya Angelou. I was like, whoa, wow. I said, your story
David Turetsky:drops that name,
CJ Gross:yeah, your story, yes, you experience racism, you experience exclusion, you experience all those things, but at a different level, right? Exactly? I was like, that's something that we're not really dealing with, which is, you know, at the time, I was like, Well, what is this thing? Right, similar, but not the same. And so from there, I read a article by Joan C Williams, one of she's one of the Harvard Business Review contributors as one of the most read contributors to the Harvard Business Review, and the article, I believe, was called Why class should be a part of your DEI conversation, or something like that, right? And she wrote a book called The Working white class. And all of this is correlated, right? So this is very interesting. All of this is correlated with the work or the book that are now sitting Vice President, JD Vance, his book, Hillbilly Eligy, right, which is about social class, right? So, full circle there. So it doesn't matter what your your background. We're all experiencing this, this experience around class and how people will judge us based on where we're from and how we grew up. And so I did, then a a working kind of a brag back bra. I did a working brown bag kind of Lunch and Learn for the company that I was working for, just to see how it would land. And people were amazed. They never thought about not just where they grew up, but how they grew up. And it started a dialog, right, this germination of ideas and concepts. And then I submitted to the Society for Human Resource Management annual conference, and it got picked up. And so that was in 2019 and so from there, I knew it was something, and that's from there, you know, the rest is history, as they say, you know, on to the on to the development of the concepts and interviewing people. So that's I wrote the book, not because I wanted to, because I thought there was a gap in the work that we were doing around culture work.
David Turetsky:But this, this happens every day, though, yeah, when we have social interactions and we make our judgments based on what we see in front of us, you know, they say, you know, first impressions, you know, tell a lot about you, or you make you, make you, make someone's mind up about you in that first impression,
CJ Gross:absolutely.
David Turetsky:And when it comes to class, it's very easy in some ways, and it's very difficult in others to make those judgments, but we do it every time, every day, good and bad. Like you said, you were meeting this African American gentleman who was gay, and you had a conception and in your head about about him, and then it blew you away that Maya Angelou was one of his mentors. I mean, it blew me away. I don't even know, because, you know, she was such a rock star, and she was so important in our world, right? So when you sat down to write this, did you, you know it's trying to, but it's almost like trying to solve for for world peace when you open up this kind of Pandora's box, because it is kind of all the world's evils in those in dealing with class. Is it something that you tried to say, let's at least start the dialog? Or was it a, Hey, I think I have something. I have an idea about how we might be able to address this, which was the were you swing for the fences like a baseball analogy, or were you just trying to get a single? Well,
CJ Gross:I think a little bit of both probably was the was the challenge with writing the book, because it was so much to cover. Yeah, when you start talking, I interview people like telling me about your zip code story, and there was one thought that I had. It's like, oh, here's, you know, probably what's happening. But there's so many things that inform someone's life. It's not just where you grew up in it, and we tend to put people into that category. You know, if you grew up in Beverly, Beverly Hills, or you grew up internationally, or you were in certain parts of the world, especially if you know that zip code story, or that zip code, you go, Oh, you're from there. Oh, right? Yeah, wow, yeah, every city is bad, right?
David Turetsky:exactly, And so it was me just trying to highlight the back drop of these stories and what they mean to us, and then also trying to help people understand, number one, you're not a bad person because you do this. Because your brain puts people into categories based on people, places and things. I call it classification instead of social class classification, right? That sounds a little bit more technical, and that's what your brain is doing. We do this when it comes to anything that we purchase. So, for example, my neighbors, so they don't know my neighbors, we're a big dog community, right? Sure.
CJ Gross:And people do, they want to know what kind of dog do you have, right? And they then keep together how much you may have paid for your dog based on whether it's mixed or not. You know all those different things, right, right? And you can tell the direction of the conversation. So something as simple as, you know, what kind of dog do you have? Can create a story about this person, and obviously, kind of car you drive. And then when you go to these networking events, getting back to work related things, it's like, What school did you go to?
David Turetsky:Right,
CJ Gross:And then you can see on people's faces their
Dwight Brown:right. response, you know, if you say you went to, I was making a joke, that's it. When you say Harvard, it's almost like you now, I have almost a British accent, because you need to be, especially if, especially if the parents say, oh my, my child studying at Harvard or school, school you never heard of. It's really quick. They don't, you know, and a breeze over it.
CJ Gross:And then, right, we do. And sometimes it's not intentional, it's just the social contracts that we've made in our society that have been created. And we all kind of play our role. And it's just as simple as fish not knowing they're in water. We don't know that we do this, but we do it all the time. To your point,
Dwight Brown:yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's almost an automatic reflex and, like, say it's not a negative reflection. It's, I mean, it's an innate thing. We in order to survive, we have to make first impressions. And so I think that the. Uh, you know, the fact that we do it really is much deeper than just sort of that surface level. You're judgmental or you're not judgmental, kind of thing
CJ Gross:in this world that we live in now, it is very challenging to try to do whether you're trying to do this work, you're a leader and manager, and you're leading different people from different backgrounds, your HR, professional, and you're dealing with all of these things, it's we like to put people in the categories. You're a good person, you're a bad person. However, when we were hunter and gather society, we use this kind of thinking, right? Our brain made these decisions so to make sure that when we when we went to go find dinner, that we didn't become dinner right right now we're longer living in those those times our brain is still functioning the same, but now we have vilified people for being human. Now that doesn't let people off the hook for saying egregious things. However, if we start from the basis that we are all operating on our reptilian brain, and when we go whether we can go to the grocery store, and we judge that person for having too many coupons,
David Turetsky:that's my mother.
CJ Gross:More like I'm out, I can't do it, I you know, or we are sitting on a board for an organization, and we're trying to decide who should be the next, the succession planning for the next, whether it's a CEO or Executive Director or president. And we're literally, I just got, I literally just got off a board meeting, and we're literally saying to ourselves, I noticed this one little thing about this person, and I wonder, does that me make them a better leader or not so much a better leader? And none of these things are, you know, based on research or any of those things. It's based on, you know, I didn't like they had glasses on with those corn room. I don't just not sure that would make a good leader. Or, yeah, they put a lot of salt. They put a lot of salt on there,
David Turetsky:and they didn't taste it first.
CJ Gross:Yeah, they didn't taste that's gotta mean something. That's gotta mean something. So I think that's the I wanted to highlight that part of what Dwight just said it's important.
David Turetsky:But to your point, some of this is learned and some of this is trained, right? Like, to that last point you made, my grandfather told me, never put salt, especially in a business meeting. Never put salt on something unless you try it first. So you're showing to the person that you're with that you're willing to do the research, you're willing to go the next step to make sure that what you're doing made sense. And I'm gonna get the points coming to Dwight's point, when you were talking about, you know, the reptilian brain, what I was thinking is, whenever we're doing that, whenever we're going on line in that supermarket, our brain does that. Is this person going to be useful to me? Are they going to stand in my way? Right? Are they going to be a good teammate, like you said, you know, when we go to hunt, are they going to be good, or are they going to put us in jeopardy? And it's almost like watching an episode of The Walking Dead, right? You come upon new people who survived, and you go, Hmm, are they going to try and kill me? Are they going to try and, you know, chop me up and make me into bait? Are they going to what are we? So we make those decisions in a split second, and it's just something innate. But I think what we're what we need to talk about is, how do you make sure that what you're doing makes sense, given where we are in our environment today?
CJ Gross:Well, David, one, one thing I want to highlight to your, to your point that you were making about the Dwight point, which is duality. Yeah. So our brains need to consider, or we need to consider that duality also exists, right? So, yes, I could put salt on everything on my plate, because that's how I grew up. But does that exclude me from being a wizard when it comes to numbers or IT, or project management or engineering, or any of those things, right? So I think we have meshed those two together. Brain said one thing, one plus one equals two, whereas there's duality. Both things can exist. So I just wanted to highlight that,
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David Turetsky:Well, our next topic, or our next question for you around our topic, is when you were writing the book and you were doing your research about this, you know, where did you start? Did you do interviews? Did you do quantitative metrics to to to figure this out.
CJ Gross:What I tried to do was think about my own experience first, right? So the so part of the book is the backdrop of the book is my experience. But then I was like, Okay, so my experience is not every experience, right? So this is the middle class upbringing. Uh, in the 1970s and 80s, from a predominantly African American community right outside of Washington, DC. And I was like, Well, what other stories exist? So I found someone who grew up in an Appalachian Community who identified with being a white woman and Christian Right, Christian values. I found someone who grew up in an inner city and went to HBCU, but also then went to Harvard as a law student. I found someone who grew up in the UK, but also went to boarding school and kind of had a different experience as well, right? So I wanted to mix it up. Got someone who was from a different part of Asia, and took those stories, interviewed those individuals with a framework of class biases, right? There were eight different class biases that we found, and those class biases kind of directed my conversation and interview style with them, so it was a little bit of qualitative and quantitative. And we also did secondary research as well to find out what the concepts existed out there.
David Turetsky:When you went through the interviews, did you make sure that you were trying to not only get the appropriate samples, but also making sure that all the environment that you're recording in the well the recording itself? Did you make sure that you were trying to keep everything else held equal, so that it was kind of a similar experience across the board, meaning you didn't take one out to a very expensive restaurant, the other one out to, I don't know, a McDonald's to have the conversation.
CJ Gross:That's a great question. And so all of the interviews were done via zoom number one, and unfortunately, it couldn't be as equal, because some people were in different countries, and we were able to interview with them. There's a woman from India that we interviewed, and that interview was very interesting, because I had to try to mitigate my bias as I interview people for the book.
David Turetsky:Yeah.
CJ Gross:So the woman from India, the woman from India. My experience with people from that country was different at the time, and I automatically put her in a category, that she grew up struggling, that she grew up, you know, with the challenges that I that I've heard about or seen from other colleagues or in movies by Kent Richard, right? And it wasn't that at all. She grew up very wealthy. It wasn't about exclusion. She grew around other people who were who were also Indian, and her biggest issue was gender. It wasn't, you know, those other things that I was I was putting my own biases overlay of right conversation. And she said, You know, when she went to school, her biggest issue was going to school as a woman in a male dominated not only environment, but also women in from her perspective and her religion, women went to school to find a husband, whereas men went to school to find a career,
David Turetsky:right,
Dwight Brown:right?
CJ Gross:And my, my kind of American lens, was like, at least you're going to school. But that was like, Well, wait a minute, you're missing the point, because I'm in a different place again, the zip code, our zip code stories, even in the interview, were colliding, and I had to do extra work that that thinking,
David Turetsky:yeah,
Dwight Brown:it is always interesting to me, as I you know, when I observe myself thinking about those first impressions that you talked about. We we write the story in our head within a five second time frame, and then when you do start to get to know someone, how differently you look at them, and it's you know, and the point that you bring up is sort of that realization of realizing that you have a bias that you're applying to it. That's a that's almost a skill. It's, it's learned, and some people learn at different levels. I think,
CJ Gross:I think it's, I think it's more of an art, because cognitively, you know, cerebral looking from a cerebral perspective, this all makes sense, but as leaders in organization, especially right now, and I think this is, this is the challenge, and this is, I think, partially paved, the road to get to where, where we are as a country right now is that we didn't have Enough leaders with different, diverse backgrounds who could be transparent and vulnerable about, you know what? I do have a bias against this certain type of person, because that's taboo now, if we can be very honest and fair in the last, you know, three to four years, if you are a white man, it was hard for you to say, I have a bias against someone who is a person of color for whatever reason, and not being able to have that conversation and being able to be transparent, and it's somewhat of a safe environment to say, and now let's talk about it has caused some of the challenges, because in order to do this work, you have to be transparent. One of my coaches said you can't take people when you're not willing to go yourself, or where you've never been yourself, and that is. Then you have powerful experiences. But if we exclude people of a certain background, no matter what, whether you're margin, you know it's marginalized or historically marginalized or minority majority, it doesn't matter. We all have a zip code story, and we're not able to share that without fear of retaliation, and whether that's being canceled or not being getting promoted, then we don't have an environment where we can have dialog. And when that happens, people will use power to protect themselves,
David Turetsky:and I'm going to be the one who says, and now we have those people who are saying what they're thinking, and it's scary as F
Dwight Brown:Yeah,
David Turetsky:and they just, they don't care. They're saying the things that they were thinking before, right? And so now we know exactly what they're thinking. And it is really scary, like there are too many immigrants in this country, and people of color shouldn't be getting short chosen for these promotions, or shouldn't be hired, or we're gonna blame them for planes crashing, even though we don't know any of the story about why the plane crashed, we're gonna blame other people who aren't white or who aren't men, white men who weren't at the controls of those planes. That's the reason why those things happened. They're literally saying this stuff out loud, and we know that they were thinking it before. CJ, right. We knew it because, you know they were who they were, but now they're they're feeling empowered to say it now, which, to me, is partially good, because now I know exactly what they're thinking, and partially I'm freaking out because now I know what they're thinking, and they're the ones who are in power, and they're the ones who are setting policy, and they're the ones who are leading our country, not just the president, but everybody else now who are running our government. Feel this way.
CJ Gross:I think what the challenge is, is to have people share those thoughts in a safe environment, before we have this pendulum swing of power, people are emboldened to say things when, as human beings, we are, we are we? If we have power, we feel like we can share, we can say, but we want the power to be distributed in a way where we don't need to cause the demise of someone else for us to share a perspective of how we think. Now, what's healthy about that is, if someone said that to you, right? So let's say, for example, someone said, I don't think that there's too many minorities or not. Well, there's too many immigrants and in this country and minorities are too sensitive, and they have too many diversity hires and companies and organizations, that person will be canceled within the last you know, if you were said, that was said in the last five years or post this election, right? We know this to be true because we saw it, but yet it still existed, and anything that is suppressed will eventually come to to the rise to the top, to all feel good to hear that, but if we do it in a safe environment where we're like leaning in, I want to hear more about your um, your story. Perfect example. I live in a I live in Pennsylvania. I live in a, you know, rural part of Pennsylvania. I know a lot of my friends like, why, but I had some really interesting conversations. And I had one a conversation that I wrote about in the book, about a gentleman who very conservative, young, white, and he would flat, fly his his confederate flag and our own neighborhood would like kind of ostracize him, but one day I, I was sitting on my porch in the rocking chair, drinking some whiskey, as we as we tend to do in this neighborhood, and he comes over and we're just having a conversation, and we start into that conversation about the flag, and immediately he is he's defensive, because he looks at me, he knows the work that I do, and he thinks that I'm going to attack him verbally, verbally, you know, or judge him. And when I when I leaned in and said, Oh, tell me more. You know, what's that about, he was, number one, shocked, and then in his answer was, you know, this is about, you know, my heritage and my family, and to tell me more. So what happened, which was, I thought was amazing. I didn't judge him. I just wanted to understand. And then he returned the favor. He said, Well, tell me, what do you think about it? What do you think when you see it? I told him what I thought. I told him what, what he might have heard, which is what other people who look like me might think, right? So, representing myself. And guess what happened? He took the flag down. Now I didn't ask him to take the flag down. I took care. I just wanted to understand,
Dwight Brown:yeah,
David Turetsky:interesting.
CJ Gross:And because of that, he said, Okay, well, because there, this could be offensive to people who look like you, and we have people who look like you, but no, he said, This is what he said. No one's ever sat down and asked me about why it's important to me.
Dwight Brown:Interesting.
CJ Gross:And that is the power of understanding the zip code story.
Dwight Brown:Right
David Turetsky:Yeah, drop your mic. We're good.
Dwight Brown:That is a mic drop.
David Turetsky:Well, thank you very much for being on the
Dwight Brown:Just kidding. We're so afraid to we're not afraid to have those conversations and and, you know, who knows why we are maybe it's because we're afraid of what we're going to hear. Well, we're going to be perceived.
David Turetsky:Look on LinkedIn. Those conversations are happening on LinkedIn these days, and they're venomous. This is not an anonymous platform, but people feel emboldened to have not the conversation CJ had, but to have the conversation of the one I was talking about, about the helicopter pilots and how it was a diversity problem. They feel so emboldened to CJ's point before about pendulums and power that they don't care. It's not a problem for them to be vocal because they believe, because they're in the majority as far as voters go, that they're okay. Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to salary.com/hrdlconsulting to schedule your free 30 minute call today. You know, I expect that on an anonymous platform like the Wall Street journal.com or, you know, YouTube, but having it on a LinkedIn where it's your career is linked to this conversation, that's scary as heck,
Dwight Brown:and I think, I think it's important to differentiate one piece, though it's easy when you're in the electronic environment to have what starts as one side conversations and ends up oftentimes in battles. Yeah, when, when you're having the face to face like CJ did with his with his neighbor, I think the in-person aspect can really kind of change the dynamics of that and and I have to wonder how much, how much impact, because of the electronic environments are such so baked into our life. Now, I wonder how much of that has to do with a lot of what we're seeing and feeling, and I wonder what it would be like if we could just get two people in a room to sit down and have that conversation. What would the outcome look like with that?
David Turetsky:I fear that unless a metal detector is used, that will go a different way.
Dwight Brown:in some cases, yes, but I gotta believe, in many cases,
David Turetsky:no sharp objects,
Dwight Brown:probably not.
CJ Gross:Well, I will say, because I'm a consultant, I'm in these organizations, I'm behind the scenes, and people would come to me. They wouldn't say this in front of everyone. They come to me like, when I'm going, when we take a break, I'm going to the restroom. One person, even you know we're talking to me, and was talking to me in the restroom, and they were having these conversations that we're talking about because they didn't want to feel judged, right? So part of this is if we could be very transparent, honest, as well as considerate, that no one likes to tell people bad news. We don't like to say things in front of people. We're refer like we're going to be judged, because we don't know how people will receive it, and do we have the emotional intelligence and social intelligence to deal with it? So sitting on that, sitting on the porch of the rocking chair, talking to my neighbor, I mean, there was still a risk, because these are my neighbor, but it's not the same risk as if I'm talking to HR, I'm in front of HR and I'm talking that's the higher risk. So to be, you know, to be transparent of that, you know, to acknowledge that, is one thing. The other thing is, what I'm finding, whether you want to have the conversation or not, are you, do you have the skill sets, and do you have the framework, and do you have the emotional intelligence? Because there is sometimes there's fallout in the beginning, and then, if you consistently show that you're a equal opportunity person, individual, if you get about you know the policies within your organization, but you are fair when people believe you are fair, no matter what their zip code, story is, whatever identity, whether it's race, gender or sexual orientation, post politics. When people think you are fair, they will share with you. They will tell you information that they wouldn't tell anyone else. They will listen to you. They will give you they will they will take in feedback. I had a gentleman who was doing my headshot, and he's a good friend of mine, and in this and. I in this election previous I'll just share the story. We're driving down for a 45 minute drive to go do a headshot. And he looks at me, and he goes, guess what? And I go, what? I'm thinking he's gonna tell me about a new camera or something. He's like, guess what? I voted for Trump.
David Turetsky:So you're like, okay, and by the way, that the next stop is right here, just kidding.
CJ Gross:I'm thinking, like, why? Yeah, so many things are going to
David Turetsky:Why disclose that?
CJ Gross:Yeah, yeah. Like, why do you want to talk? And I shy away from, you know, talking about politics with with close friends, right? Because it's like, one of the, you know, it's gonna be very touchy. But I said, You know what? The 45 minute convert, you know, drive you want. You brought it up. Let's have the conversation, right?
David Turetsky:And 90? Is it 90 minute or 40? You're gonna have to drive him back.
CJ Gross:I got your Uber back, but see, and I think that's the thing that there is the fear of, you know, and for whatever reason, he felt like there was safety and telling but I don't know why he was so excited about it, right? So anyway, I had to use all of the skills that I have.
David Turetsky:Yeah,
CJ Gross:To have that conversation in this day and time. And the first thing I said was, when you say, you know, you're in this moving in this direction from from a political perspective, tell me more, because I didn't want to, I didn't want to, I didn't want to, just reason, right? Yeah, so tell me more, right? And when you say you think he's going to do a better job running the country, what does that really mean for you? And what do you think it means for me? So instead of, it's really hard to do that, instead of, instead of him, instead of having, like, you know, I'm gonna give you my thoughts and I'm gonna judge you, especially in this day and age, but having the restraint and the skills and the building the art to say, tell me more and help me understand. I learned some things. I totally disagree with him, but I learned some things, and it became a less com, less uncomfortable conversation. And he so, I mean, he is so supportive of the work in the zip code story. So this goes back to the conversation about duality.
David Turetsky:Yeah,
CJ Gross:Can you have someone, for whatever reason, who voted for Trump considering, I mean, this is the aftermath. I haven't taught some and
David Turetsky:You won't to talk to him again.
CJ Gross:Is it true? Can you have someone who voted for Trump, right and still believes in a certain level of inclusion and diversity, and you know, all these different things? Weeks later, he sent me something and say, hey, something about the zip code stories like, Hey, this is the zip code story. And I think we should promote think we should promote it here. This is, this will be great. So, so could both? Could both be true? And I know we want to. We need our brains, need him to be in one category or the other.
Dwight Brown:So, right? Yeah, it's, it's a zip code. What, who you vote for is a zip code, you know.
David Turetsky:Well, and as part of those tools that you were talking about, and my first reaction would be to be snarky about it and to say something knee jerk that might offend them, or to say and by the way, Uber is on my phone right now, and I will get you a ride home. But other other than that, though, I've had very good conversations with people to try and understand what policy, what, what was the failing of the other candidates. And I've actually had that conversation with someone in my family about not voting for Kamala, but and also not voting for Trump, but not voting for either candidate. And I said, Well, you know, a vote that's not for Kamala is a vote for for Trump, ostensibly. And you know how that all works? And they were so furious about certain social and really emotionally charged topics that they couldn't get beyond it. Couldn't vote for her, right? And so instead of canceling them to your point, or, you know, or dismissing their opinion, I heard them out, and I understand, but, you know, part of me was disappointed, but, but I didn't let that come across. It was, that's their choice. They're a voter. It's their choice, and that's okay. And so one of the ways I've been rationalizing the next four years or three years and 11 months and a few hours, is that this is what the choice of the American people was, unless there was something going on, but this was the choice, and this is what we're going to have to live with for probably beyond four years, probably decades, especially with dismantling of our institutions. But, but, but to your point, instead of dismissing their thoughts, instead of dismissing their beliefs, listen to them, understand them, and try and create. A common ground where you can still have a relationship with that person,
CJ Gross:yeah, and I think that's important, because at the end of the day, you know, organizations that I work in are very political, yep, very heavy power based on power, right? So who's, you know, and in order to pull people from different groups. We need more of those conversations, because what will happen is, well, you might not agree with that person, but a week later is a different topic. They're more likely to trust you. They're more likely to use their internal I'm not saying organization, not you know us, political power anything but their organizational political power to support something, to get something done, right? And I think that is a hard thing to understand, how you deal with that, because it takes a lot of inner work. And in the book, Getting back to the book, I talk about that you cannot do this work, and I say this work, you know, with inside organizations and bring different groups together, unless you are willing to do the work on your own self and understand how your zip code story will apply and impact these conversations.
David Turetsky:I don't think there's anything more to say. I think that's a beautiful way of ending. And seriously, now you can, you can drop the mic. CJ, thank you so much for being here. It's been such a pleasure having this discussion, and I will venture to say that we were going to have you back to talk a little bit more, especially as time goes on and we see how people are relating to each other in the context of of where we are
CJ Gross:absolutely well, thank Thank you. David and Dwight, for having me on. It's been a pleasure, and it's been a good time. Yeah, we
David Turetsky:Definitely enjoy this.
Dwight Brown:Thanks for being on.
CJ Gross:Absolutely and
David Turetsky:Dwight, thank you.
Dwight Brown:Thank you. Been great, you guys,
David Turetsky:and it's been wonderful to have you all here. Thank you. Take care and stay safe.
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